http://adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2009-1505&page=16
Hi. I’m Jimmy. I’m a recent college grad with a new job, and I just moved 1,500 miles from everything I’ve ever known.
I grew up a Seventh-day Adventist. I pinned felts in Sabbath school and recited memory verses on Thirteenth Sabbath. I worked at summer camp and did literature evangelism. I led out in academy prayer conferences and spoke at my college graduation. For the past 22 years—whether chosen by my parents, preference, or proximity—church has been an integral part of my life. And both logic and tradition say it will continue to be.
But right now, logic and tradition are getting whipped by reality.
Reality says that as I search for a new sanctuary, I’ll only attend a given church three times before I decide whether or not it’s capable of meeting my needs.1 If it’s not, I’ll go elsewhere . . . or nowhere.
Reality says that one in every five Adventist churches in North America doesn’t have a single child or teenager—much less anyone my age. In fact, the median age in these churches is nearly 60—20 years older than the average American.2
Reality says that as a baptized Adventist since my midteens, there’s a 50 percent chance that I’ll drop out of the church completely by the time I’m 25.3
A quick interpretation of these devastating statistics yields this: today, our church is growing old. At the same time, through lack of cultivation, engagement, and meaningful relationships, tomorrow’s church is leaving . . . like water between our fingers.
Isolating the Issue
We can all agree there’s a problem. Now, the question begs: Why are young adults leaving the church at such an alarming rate?4
In the fall of 2008 a group of the sharpest Adventist minds from North America, Australia, and Europe descended upon Andrews University for the 2008 180˚ Symposium. The topic? Reclaiming and retaining young adults in today’s Adventist Church.
Out of the collective research and discussions emerged a synopsis containing the top five keys to keeping young adults passionate about their church:5
They must have a strong identity with which to shape their faith.
They must be intentionally engaged by church leadership.
They must be cultivated through authentic spirituality based on a connection with Jesus Christ.
They must be actively empowered in service through evangelism opportunities in both church and community.
The fifth key—tied unequivocally to the other four—is quite simple, yet remains the single most important factor in retaining young adults and reclaiming those who have drifted away: whether with a middle-aged couple or spirited pastor, energetic peer or elderly grandma, if they are going to stay, young adults must have genuine relationships inside their church family.
Notice something about these five points. Nowhere to be found are the often blamed “big issues”—music style and service structure—causing the constant clashing that often creates the generational divides in our church. Go ahead; try to find young adults connected to a church through healthy, spiritually fulfilling relationships arguing over stylistic worship preferences. You won’t.
Worship style is only an issue when meaningful relationships are lacking.
In an effort to understand the wishes of young adults, the Center for Youth Evangelism (CYE) conducted a study that asked respondents to rate the importance of 28 variables in determining their desire to attend a given church. Participants were given a scale of 1-3 with which to rate each category, with 1 meaning “Not Important” and 3 meaning “Very Important.” The top score, with an average of 2.88, was “accepting atmosphere,” while the third choice was simply “community.”
It’s all about relationships.
In his analysis of reasons why young Adventists drop out of church, Roger Dudley found that one “major theme shared by dropouts was that they felt unaccepted.”6 Further-more, a study by Rainer and Rainer of 1,000 young adults who left the church yielded the second highest motivation for leaving: “church members seemed judgmental or hypocritical.”7
This isn’t a new phenomenon. Even Ellen White observed this in her day:
“Christian sociability is altogether too little cultivated by God’s people. . . . By social intercourse, acquaintances are formed and friendships contracted which result in a unity of heart and an atmosphere of love.”8 “If we would humble ourselves before God, and be kind and courteous and tenderhearted and pitiful, there would be one hundred conversions to the truth where now there is only one.”9
Young adults want to be accepted as they are and unreservedly included in a community.
So how do we make it happen?
Supplying Sanctuary
As the Israelites neared the Promised Land, God knew that safety and security—especially for those least deserving—was of the utmost importance. So, He directed that six cities of refuge be established, where individuals who had accidentally killed another Israelite could escape revenge through the shelter of an intentional community.10
Another example of the Bible’s practicality, this Old Testament infrastructure has ignited a flame at the Center for Youth Evangelism—one that is starting to burn bright. It’s called Church of Refuge (COR).
The mission of COR is to “help churches provide meaningful and relevant young adult ministry with the goal of keeping Adventist young adults in the church while also reaching out to those who are not currently participating
in an Adventist congregation.”11 This support ministry is dedicated to helping Adventist churches better meet the all-around needs of young adults.
“Churches of Refuge care about the spiritual needs of young adults,” said Ron Whitehead, executive director for the Center for Youth Evangelism. “But they also care about their physical and social well-being.”
In one church, a young man without health insurance was in desperate need of a root canal. Instead of simply praying for a solution, this church found a dentist in the congregation willing to perform the procedure for free. Like the old adage “Don’t give a hungry man a Bible,” this church understands that spiritual wholeness is connected to all facets of life. This is what being a COR is all about.
In order to become a COR, a church must go through the certification process by first registering on the COR Network (www.churchofrefuge.org). The next step is for the given church to provide a written description of how they are performing in nine key areas instrumental to engaging young adults.12 Once the certification team is convinced that the church is “truly a safe, supportive, and engaging community” for young adults, it will receive COR certification and be listed on the Web site. To ensure constant credibility, churches must submit an updated annual recertification report.
“Imagine if upon college graduation or a move, young professionals had access to a site where they could see a list of churches geared to take care of their needs,” Whitehead said. “This won’t solve all problems, but at least it gives young adults a place to start.”
The new Web site (launching in early spring 2009) provides more than a reference for young adults and a marketing tool for churches. With forums, blogs, and updated news, the COR site is a vital asset in providing pertinent information and connecting local churches to the parent organization, pastoral leadership, and each other.13
“Churches cannot presume that college students and young professionals will choose to spend their free time at church simply because it’s the right thing to do,” Whitehead said. “I love evangelism—but somebody has to start talking about the back door.”
Luckily, the Center for Youth Evangelism is doing a lot more than talking.14
Just Accept
As she approached the young pastor, her heart raced to warp speed. And why not? After all, she was nothing more than a worthless prostitute. Walking toward Him through the church foyer, she felt the cold stares and raised eyebrows.
I don’t belong here.
Then He saw her. With a kindness in His voice she’d never known, He asked her name.
“Mary.”
“It’s nice to meet you, Mary. I’m Jesus,” He replied. “Are you hungry? We’re having potluck today and you’re more than welcome to join us.”
* * *
Did Jesus agree with Mary Magdalene’s life of harlotry? Absolutely not. But for Jesus, agreement was not, and is not, a prerequisite for acceptance.
It doesn’t have to be for us either.
For too long we’ve allowed differences in age, dress, diet, music, and vocabulary to trick us into thinking we can’t exist as a cohesive community. Struggling over these petty preferences has shattered relationships, lessening our effectiveness where it really matters.
Losing half our young adults might seem like an uphill battle.
It is.
But this isn’t about statistics; it’s about salvation.
Just like the little boy throwing starfish one by one back into the sea; accept unconditionally, love enthusiastically, and your impact will be felt—one life at a time.
Oh, and free food never hurts either.
_________
1According to Ron Whitehead at the Center for Youth Evangelism.
2As cited by A. Allan Martin, Ministry International Journal for Pastors, July 2008.
3Roger Dudley, Why Our Teenagers Leave the Church (2000).
4Young adult defined as ages 18-35.
5A book containing all the papers presented at the symposium will be available this spring from AdventSource.
6Dudley, op. cit.
7See note 4 above.
8Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 6, p. 172.
9White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, p. 189.
10Numbers 35:9-15; see also Deuteronomy 19:1-10.
11Ron Whitehead and Jeff Boyd, Church of Refuge: A Support Ministry for Youth and Young Adults (2008).
12As supported by biblical teaching, pastoral experience, writings of Ellen White, and CYE original research. See www.churchofrefuge.org for a list of the nine areas.
13Whitehead and Boyd, op. cit.
14For more information on becoming a Church of Refuge, go to www.churchofrefuge.org or call the CYE at (269) 471-8380.
Posts
32 comments:
Hey Jimmy,
I've been following our articles since you've been putting them up on face book..good stuff and it sounds like you really want to change the SDA church from the inside. I applaude your dedication and effort..miss you here in Nebraska too. This article caught my attention more than others because I'm part of the statistic. I left the Adventist church two years ago for another Christian church.
I think you bring up some great points about why some leave..however, in my experience(and all of the eleven Adventist families I am in contact with that have left the church)that presents only part of the reality. Im sure some leave over relationship issues(felt unaccepted,etc) and fellowship/connectedness issues, but for a lot of us, we left over doctrine. We left because Jesus reached down and touched our lives and called us to Him and a free, no-strings-attached salvation that He and He alone purposed before we were ever thought of...before the foundation of the world(Eph 1:4)!And once He called me, I had to leave. I had to go to a church where the Bible and the Bible alone are preached, where sound doctrine is taught, and most importantly the true gospel is preached: that Jesus lived the perfect life that I cannot, died the death that took the wrath of God that I could never overcome, and overcame the grave that would've held me in judgement for eternity.
I'm wondering if you interviewed anyone who left for a non-SDA church? What did they have to say? Because over 300,000 people leave the Adventist church every year, and I know not they don't all leave the SDA church over relationships.
Check out gentlybroken.com It's a great site with stories of some who left for Jesus. I'd be more than happy to tell you more of why I left too.Keep fighting the good fight, Jimmy.
Love in Christ
Breanne (Lippincott) Whitney
Breanne, it's great to hear from you. I miss Nebraska a lot, but I'm enjoying California too :)
You know, that's a great point. Because of the uniqueness of the Adventist church, we sometimes get lifestyle preferences mixed up with doctrine...and sometimes we get doctrine just all tangled up in itself. I had thought about interviewing people who might have left the church, but didn't feel that article was big enough to represent all of the issues involved in that...it's a great point and idea though. I feel like lack of meaningful relationships is the biggest issue--that's why I concentrated on it.
So tell me, what are some of the specific doctrinal issues that caused you to leave the church, if you're wiling to share, that is. I think I have a pretty good idea of the stuff you are talking about, but I'd love to hear it from you.
Thanks for the comment, and good to hear from you.
Stay Strong,
Jimmy
Hey Jimmy,
California is a really beautiful state..glad to hear you like it out there. The biggest issue for me was Jesus Christ. As a Christian, I have no other hope of salvation other than every single day clinging to the cross of Christ and trusting in His life, death and resurrection to save me from the wrath of God. I came to a place where I understood how sinful I was and always will be. I knew that no matter how well I kept the rules I couldn't be good enough to keep my salvation. So I started to study. I was pretty desperate to find some assurance that I could be saved. As I studied the New Testament, Jesus reached down and took the veil of self-righteousness from my eyes. I began to understand several very important things.
One: righteousness can never come through the Law, only condemnation. (Romans 3:20)I,as a miserable, wretched sinner dead in my sins, could have no part in my salvation...even to choose God...it is God who first chose me and granted me the gift of grace and faith(Ephesians 2).
This contradicts Fundamental Belief 7 which asserts that man can have the free will to choose God while dead in trespasses.Also in conflict is Fundamental Belief number 10 which asserts that through salvation we gain the power to live a holy life. The Holy Spirit is the one who works out any good works that may be evidenced in my life, not me. It is Christ who lives in me who is righteous...His righteousness completely credited to my account, not infused into me so I can live better.
Two: Christ fulfilled the Law (Romans 10:4) and established a new covanent with us in His blood. His atonement was complete at the cross and all my sins are forgiven(Book of Hebrews, but specifically chapters 8-10)
This understanding would be in conflict with Fundamental Belief 2(due to the reference to the sanctuary ministry),Fundamental Beliefs 19 and 20 as the Law is fulfilled in Jesus(including the Sabbath command) and I find my Sabbath rest in Christ not a day,Fundie 21 and 22, and Fundie 24 because I see no basis in Scripture for Jesus atoning work to be continuous from 1844 onward.
Three: Ellen White is not the spirit of prophecy. Many of her prophecies didn't come true (only one wrong prediction condemns a prophet as false per Deut 18:22) and much of her writings add to or contradict Scripture (a big no-no).
This obviously contradicts Fundie 18.
Those are the big issues. I also disagree with the state of the dead and eschatology doctrines, but those are quite minor.
Thanks for the interest in my journey! If you have more questions feel free to ask..I'm a theology junkie and really enjoy talking about my Savior!
Breanne
I've read the comments to the article and I totally understand what Bree is saying and believe that is one of the larger reasons why people leave. The problem of the church isn't with the Doctrine though. Doctrine is back up by scripture, nor is it the lack of grace(even sda's believe Christ Fulfilled the law, i'll expound more later) but It's how we're raised. Either by our parents or the ones that taught us the Doctrine. They made us believe we had to live perfectly to Doctrine or we would not be accepted by God or other church members. Which is completely contrary to trusting and believing in Grace. SOOO.. that left many Young adults feeling hopeless, and lost! Including me! I remember having bitterness towards my parents and the church. I had to be "led" to certain moment before I was ready to hear about grace also.. It wasn't until a evangelist within the church came and preached about Jesus and Grace, that the grace and doctrine came together. And I realized it was impossible to live on my own perfectly, and i then realized i needed this Grace.
That's what the power of grace is. Realizing the sacrifice Jesus made, and that God looks at Jesus and not me. Infact there is a quote... but EGW (i know Bree doesn't feel keen on EGW, but EGW makes some excellent points on grace, that parallel the scriptures) that says "we are not to be anxious of what Christ and God think of us, but about what God thinks about Christ, our substitute." (She even preached grace). The LAW is not to be a chain around our neck when Jesus paid such a high sacrifice. That LAW is there, to show us WHAT SIN IS. 1 john 3:4. Romans 6:14, 15
The penalty of the LAW is DEATH. The LAW demands Righteousness. But we by ourselves ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS... so we have a problem.. But then Christ came to fulfill the law so we might HAVE LIFE.. the law cannot give LIFE. Through the law we understand what SIN is.. and it leads us to Christ! If we don't know sin? Why would we need Christ?!?! Romans 4:14, Galations 3:21-29. So we are not under the penalty of the law anymore! Because Christ has come... and we can believe that he has saved us from DEATH.. Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, (the breaking of the law is death), but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Therefore according to Christ the law is not void, or has vanished (Matthew 5:17-20) but is there for a purpose, to know what sin is.. Which then leads us to the loving arms of God and Christ.. GRACE. Why have Grace, if there is no sin? I wouldn't need saving... if there wasn't anything to save me from.
So I understand how Bree feels... However, the problem is not the Doctrine (there is many scriptures to back it up) but with the mis placed feelings of being lost and not being taught of the saving power of Grace.
i can see how people can blame relationships with judgmental church members. However, the church isn't judging.. it's the belief in our own minds that we are being judge because all we're focusing on is the law and how we cannot keep it. Remember, the LAW does not bring life.. Only Jesus does.
The saving power of Grace is as we study his word and about Jesus's sacrifice.. God will change us.. It's not something explainable but just happens. He will cause us to walk on His path, as we behold his Truth. John 7:31, John 1:1, john 10:34-29 etc...
This salvation is still no strings attached.. It's plain, sin is the transgression of the law, which leads a sinner to death, but Christ came to fulfill the law and to save us from the wages of sin.
So the law exist... and is not void. There is still wages for sin... BUT we have JESUS. Praise God. Who lives in us, to cause us to walk in truth. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. (Jesus is the Word, John 1:1) He has no strings attached.. He wants to do his will in us. As we choose him freely.
I want to restate ... So killing.?..still bad... Cheating on spouse.?.Hating your neighbor? still bad... Worshiping idols.?. still bad.. forgetting his ordained Sabbath.?. You can figure out the rest.. This is how we know sin! But Jesus has come to give life.. cuz I cannot "DO" any good on my own. That's why Faith and works go together. I believe Jesus died freely for me, even if it was only me, and I believe he saved me from the Law of sin and wrath, so, that is why i follow, cuz He leadeth me. I further want to say.. we can't only preach Doctrinal Truth, nor can we only preach Grace. But we need both. John who wrote the Gospel of John, and the 3 johns, and James. It's amazing how many times he says "Truth" and how many times he says "love".. Some people would prefer only one of them. But we need to know BOTH.
So in conclusion, i can relate to Bree that not knowing GRACE and feeling lost to Doctrine, is good reason to not stay. Thankfully, God led me to His saving Grace.
Nessa,
You wrote "I've read the comments to the article and I totally understand what Bree is saying and believe that is one of the larger reasons why people leave. The problem of the church isn't with the Doctrine though."
I don't understand what you are trying to say. While an Adventist can deny that doctrine is a problem, for those of us who studied from the Bible alone we discovered the historic Christian faith to be true. That puts us at odds with SDA doctrine, and we along with the rest of the Christian world declare the SDA doctrine to be heterodox at best. It's things like an atonement that wasn't complete at the cross and needed an Investigative Judgement in 1844 and that unconfessed sins are held against me, and a confusion of Law and Gospel that gives SDA a heterodox label.
Ellen White believes that sins we have not confessed will be held against us
" All sin unrepented of and unconfessed will remain upon the books of record. It will not be blotted out, it will not go beforehand to judgment, to be canceled by the atoning blood of Jesus. The accumulated sins of every individual will be written with absolute accuracy, and the penetrating light of God's law will try every secret of darkness. In proportion to the light, to the opportunities, and the knowledge of God's claims upon them will be the condemnation of the rejecters of God's mercy. {TMK 359.4}"
and
"No, I do not; but one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God. You had light; you had knowledge, but did not choose to appropriate it. It meant someone else, not
you. I love your soul, and I beseech you not to be deceived, but to see that you must follow the Lord with undivided heart. {12MR 40.3}"
Tell me, is your character without spot? Mine surely is not.
The problem I see is an issue of defining terms. Is grace imputed to me or infused in me? To explain, am I legally declared righteous apart from anything I can do on the basis of Christ's work or is grace that mysterious power by which I am able to attain righteousness by a process of sanctification with help from Jesus?
I submit that it is the first. Grace is the free gift of Christ's righteousness to my account. My sins are remembered no more.
Many people then attempt to say such a definition leads to antimonianism(no law for the Christian). This however is not so. We live under the law of Christ. Those things which Christ has reiterated in the New Testament and brought to light in the New Testament are our guide...this is the Third use of the Law(the first being a curb to stop the overt sin of man, the second as a mirror to show us our unworthiness). This Third use has no bearing on our righteousness before God. I stand before Him perfect now today, because Christ died for my sin and covered me with His righteousness.
The difference between SDA and other Christians is that we believe Christ fulfilled and took out of the way the Old Covenant and established a New Covenant. See the book of Galations, 2 Cor 3-5, Hebrews 4,8-12, colossians 2.
I understand that you individually may believe in salvation by grace through faith alone..but the SDA church simply does not teach that.I went to SDA church schools and boarding academy and one year of SDA college...they teach salvation has two parts: justification and sanctification. This is works righteousness.
Christians teach that salvation is justification, period. Out of our justification flows the good works God prepared for us to do in the Holy Spirit.
I hope I have not offended you in any way, and really enjoyed your comment. I just want you to understand that while from your perspective doctrine cannot be the issue...from the non-SDA Christian perspective it is THE issue.
Okay, so Breanne are you saying that you believe in "Once saved always saved?" Just trying to clarify terms...
Nope, thats not what I'm saying.
God knows His elect..He chose them from the foundation of the world.
However, there are clear passages that state that we can fall away. Galations 3 talks about those who seek to be justified by law falling from grace. We can walk away by choosing to rely on anything/anyone but Jesus and His atonement. However I can also have complete assurance of salvation today and everyday because I trust Christ's death to cover my sins: past, present, and future.
So to clarify, in your opinion, it's not about confessing particular sins or doing whatever we want...its about living the best we can while acknowledging the blood of Christ and His grace is our only hope for salvation. If we do that, confessing every sin is unecessary...is that accurate?
However, by completely rejecting God, it is still possible to fall away--I'm glad you're not in the "once saved always saved camp," that was always a very frustrating belief to me.
Not quite.
I don't believe our focus should ever be on "living the best we can"
Our focus should be on Jesus who lived the life we cannot, died the death I deserved, and overcoming the grave for us all. I don't need to worry about living a "good life" because the Holy Spirit dwells in me...all I need to do is listen to His voice and focus on Christ. The law will do its job to continually point me to my need for a Savior.
We, as Christians living lives of repentance, confess our sins and cast ourselves on the mercy of Jesus and struggling against the old man(See Romans 7/8). The Christian life is doing whatever we as a new man want...the difference is in what we want to do. A person saved by Jesus Christ wants only to listen to His voice and the voice of the Holy Spirit as revealed in His Word.
Not OSAS...saved by the blood of Jesus as we trust in His work for us.
In Jesus
Breanne
Hi Bree,
Thanks for your responses, I have taken no offense, but it has definitely got me searching out info on the subject. I had to take a quick refresher course to understand what SDA's believe (in written form from the fundamental beliefs book, I’m sure you’ve seen it). I do understand that SDA's beliefs differ from the World's beliefs. Whether that's a bad thing.. is a matter of perspective. I agree we might have had two different perspectives of how Grace was taught in the church. I thank you for being so polite through these conversations; you seem to be a very intelligent person.
I would like to address the issue of repenting and confessing sins. I am still trying to figure out the information and it can be quite confusing. So some of this I just want to throw out there, because someone is reading and responding. :) I'm assuming with your background in SDAs you probably learned about the 2300 day prophecy and the sanctuary system. I looked over our quarterly from a couple quarters ago, and it was all about the Atonement and the cross of Christ. We believe that the atonement was finished at the Cross. That Grace is freely available, if one believes. When Jesus said it was Finished, it was finished.
As for the Investigative Judgement. I’m assuming (correct me if I’m wrong) you’re referring to SDA’s belief in living in the “Day of Atonement”. Where in the Old Testament they were confessing their sins and making sure they were spotless.
I do not believe that we have to literally “confess”(speaking out to God) EVERY sin. When I read the quotes you posted from EGW. It reminded me first of.. 1 john 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. As we know about Grace, it’s already there, we just need to believe it. I’ll quote from the quarterly from Oct-Dec 2008, “In the Bible the mediation of Christ before the Father is never separated from His atoning sacrifice. The sacrifice was offered on behalf of the human race, but its forgiving power continues to be effective in behalf of those who, in response to the invitation of the Spirit, repent and are converted. Forgiveness is mediated from God to us through Christ (Eph 4:32) But it is also through Christ that repentance reaches the human heart (Acts 5:31). It also is effective for the forgiveness of sins committed by believers after conversion, because even after conversion sin can beset us. In such cases, John says we have an advocate who can represent us before God and through whom we can be forgiven (1 John 2:1,2)”
I believe you stated that you believe we can definitely fall away. Also that the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us by His voice. So we know the Holy Spirit convicts us of truth and of sin and of Judgment. (john 16:11) So even after we accept God’s grace and we begin the Journey with Christ. We can be convicted of sin in our lives. (Do we agree?)
Let’s say I accepted Grace, and started my journey, but then I learned of sin in my life which previously I was ignorant of. What if, I ignored that conviction? Would I still be listening to the Holy Spirit’s voice? Maybe it’s just a little fainter. Or louder? What if I kept ignoring that call to change? Wouldn’t that then be an unconfessed sin, unrepented of? I know in the dictionary repentance means to turn away from the course one was following. Even the Lord repented in the Old Testament Exodus 32:14:
14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
We know from proverbs 15:3 “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, watching the evil and the good.” That God see’s EVERYTHING. So He already knows if we are sinning or not. (Side note, just curious, were you taught by SDA’s that you literally have to “confess” out loud every sin?) Anyhow, from my perspective what EGW is saying, is if we ignore the penetrating light from God’s law and we secretly go on sinning. Then how can we claim we believe in Jesus’s death? When His death was because of SINS? Sin can in no way dwell with God! He is the opposite! So in saying confessing and repenting of sin is meaning STOP SINNING! Turn away from the course that one was following. I know for me personally when I’m convicted of something and I finally (sometimes after awhile) turn away from it, my conscious is cleared and the burden is relieved!! I didn’t sit there and confess every sin, I just stopped sinning. It was in a sense confessing before the ONE who see’s all and knows all, declaring to Him, “I believe You and Your Word. “
Her second quote seems very similar and she’s specifically speaking to an individual situation. Her concluding sentence says what she means, “I love your soul, and I beseech you not to be deceived, but to see that you must follow the Lord with undivided heart.” The bible even clearly says we cannot serve two Masters. Also sin can be according to James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do Good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” She is saying to him, stop sinning or harboring that sin. Obviously that is part of the job of the Holy Spirit, to convict us of sin, but He cannot lead us to a better ground, if we refuse to follow.
I hope I'm explaining everything on subject with yours, it takes me awhile to gather my thoughts..
As for the Investigative Judgement, I would like to know, what your understanding of it is? (if you don’t mind sharing). I just don’t want to assume.
I am enjoying this conversation very much. I feel it is taking me on a wonderful Bible study. Thank you! I hope all is well.
Warmly, your sister in Christ,
Vanessa
Hello again Nessa,
I guess I'll start with my understanding of the Investigative judgement. The following quote is from a fellow former Adventist and is the best,short description of what I believed as an Adventist:
"The IJ is that God is currently in the process of judging the lives of the professed believers in order to determine if they lived their life in a manner that demonstrates that they are fit for heaven. This investigation began in 1844 with those who had already died and will eventually progress to those who are alive. For all of those who have not demonstrated through their lives that they have developed a character worthy of heaven, all of their confessed sins will be placed back upon them in judgment. The IJ also has the purpose of ending the great controversy that began when satan challenged whether God's law was fair. In order for the remaining unfallen worlds to completely and forever know that God is true and that satan's accusations are false, God must demonstrate that men can perfectly keep His law. So the IJ will also also reveal for all that God was correct, His law was fair, and that men have kept that law."
I agree that we are still convicted of sin after salvation..that is the struggle against the old man from Chapter 7 of Romans.
I think when you discuss our unrepented-of sin you confuse our justification and sancification.
Would you say that you have not really repented unless you cease committing that sin?
Talking about deliberate sin is quite irrelevant b/c the Christian hates sin.
Repentence is a turning from sin...however, it does not lead to perfection on this earth. Instead of loving our sin, we hate it and war against the old man that loves our sin. I have yet to meet a person who has victory over any sin, though. Do you really love God every moment with all your heart? B/c if not..its a sin. Do you ever walk through Wal-mart and want something? Sin. Ever think about saying a naughty word to someone? Sin. Ever fib to a friend about how they look? Sin. Ever put anything above your relationship with God? Sin. Ever fail to love anyone you've ever met perfectly? Sin.
The point is that no matter how much the Holy Spirit works in our lives, we don't get more righteous. One sin is enough to condemn us for eternity. -James 2:10
We don't fall away by failing to achieve total victory over a sin...we fall away by trusting anything but Christ for salvation and not believing in Jesus.
Grace is not the power to live a holy life...or the mercy that makes up for whatever we fail to accomplish on this earth...we can do nothing but cast ourselves on Jesus and His mercy and rely on Him to save us. Good works are a product of that salvation...but there is no need to get caught up worrying if they are good enough or if you are making progress...that just enters you back into a performance based system of salvation. Fix your eyes on Christ's life, death and resurrection.
PS...Thanks for the kind words Nessa. You also seem very intelligent and articulate. I'm really enjoying the discussion as well and am very glad to hear that this has made you dig deeper into the Scripture..what a treasure we have in the Word!
In Christ
Breanne
I do agree with you Bree! Everything you said about Grace and Jesus. I do not believe of ourselves anything righteous can exude forth, but daily we die to choosing self (the old man) and look towards Jesus. I do not believe that if and when we “stop sinning” we are righteous. No way, the moment we accepted redemption from Jesus, His blood covered us and made us whiter then snow. Furthermore, even if we failed in anyway (which as the bible teaches and you pointed out it is inevitable, because all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God.) It’s His righteous arm that holds us up! Ps 16:5, Ps 145:14.
And as you said “We don't fall away by failing to achieve total victory over a sin...we fall away by trusting anything but Christ for salvation and not believing in Jesus.” I completely agree. I see that sometimes we can also trust in the world (worldly gain, fame, relationships to complete that void) for salvation rather than Jesus also. That’s what I meant when I talked about conviction and not turning away from it. It’s the realization that I could be putting myself first in various ways then really tuning into what my Savior did and wants of me. By tuning into Jesus, we see that the “stuff” in our lives is pathetic in contrast to Him.
You also said, “Good works are a product of that salvation...but there is no need to get caught up worrying if they are good enough or if you are making progress...that just enters you back into a performance based system of salvation. Fix your eyes on Christ's life, death and resurrection.” I completely agree with this too.
The interesting thing is we studied the Justification and Sanctification this last Sabbath in class. We do not believe that our own works gains us any righteousness or acceptance of God. I’ll quote what the SDA believes from 27 fundamental beliefs on Sanctification, “The word ‘sanctification’ is a translation of the Greek hagiasmos, meaning ‘holiness,’ ‘consecration,’ ‘sanctification,’ from hagiazo, ‘to make holy,’ ‘to consecrate,’ ‘to sanctify,’ ‘to set apart.’ The Hebrew equivalent is qadash, ‘to separate from common use.’ True repentance and justification lead to sanctification. Justification and sanctification are closely related, distinct but never separate. They designate two phases of salvation: Justification is what God does for us, while sanctification is what God does in us. Neither justification nor sanctification is the result of meritorious works. Both are solely due to Christ’s grace and righteousness. …… As to the believer’s past, at the moment of justification the believer is also sanctified ‘in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God’ (1 Cor. 6:11) He or she becomes a ‘Saint.’ At that point the new believer is redeemed, and belongs fully to God. As a result of God’s call (Rom 1:7), believers are called saints for they are ‘in Christ’ (Phil 1:1, John 15:1,7), not because they have achieved a state of sinlessness. “
That was published in 1988. As for the Investigative Judgment, the quote you stated differs from what this same book says of our beliefs. We believe it is similar to the Day of Atonement talked about in the bible, but by no means is our own salvational works going to gain us anything. I’ll quote from it again, “And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who THROUGH REPENTENCE AND FAITH in CHRIST is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment. This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward “to give to every one according to his work” (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, satan’s accusations will be answered (Rev 12:10). All who have truly repented and by faith claimed the blood of Christ’s atoning sacrificed have received pardon. When their names come up in this judgment and they are found clothed with the robe of Christ’s righteousness, their sins are blotted out and they are accounted worthy of eternal life (Luke 20:35).”
I have never been taught (I was led to believe this discouraging idea through my parents ideas of upbringing though, the do’s and don’ts) that at any point man can keep the law of God perfectly. As we both know, ALL have sin and have fallen short of the Glory of God. We MUST and NEED a Savior. I, personally have never heard that we of ourselves can keep His law. I was taught by our church that as you look at Jesus, he gives the power to follow.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Ephesians 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
As you said.. “Good works are a product of that salvation...” Amen, I keep the Sabbath or do not kill anyone etc…because Jesus chose me and gave up His life to save my imperfect life, even if I never chose Him, he STILL chose to die for me. I know that’s how you feel also.
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom 8:7
So Sabbath keeping etc.. would be useless if a person is not born again. However, as soon as we received Him into the life. There are immediately fulfilled in us all glorious things the law ordains… Rom 8:3,4 kjv “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. “
The amazing thing about Christ Atonement for us is how deep of a treasure it really is, that we could discuss and study for eternity and still learn more amazing things about His Awesome Love. This is another reason why I love to discuss this subject. I hope I gave some clarity as to the subject. If you ever visit Jimmy, I would love to meet you! In fact, if you have a facebook or myspace, my name is Vanessa Ghilarducci.
Warmly,
Vanessa
Hi Vanessa,
I'll look you up on facebook...It's is always refreshing to meet an Adventist who believes they are saved by grace alone.
You said "Justification and sanctification are closely related, distinct but never separate. They designate two phases of salvation: Justification is what God does for us, while sanctification is what God does in us. "
I disagree. Salvation is our justification before God..sanctification is and must be separate or no one could be saved.
Also you said, "I was taught by our church that as you look at Jesus, he gives the power to follow[the law]."
Does that mean that you believe as a regenerated Christian you can now keep His law(by His power)?
Ellen White would agree with this.. she says:
"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69)
Which is exactly what I learned growing up..that we must perfectly reproduce the character of Christ.
I am very glad that you were not taught the Investigative Judgement as I was taught it :) I still see no basis for it from Scripture for several reasons:
1) Believers do not come under judgement for salvation.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24 RSV
2)God already knows who are His. John 10.
3)My sins are already blotted out...not waiting til the last day. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee." Isaiah 44:22
4)Further...what about Enoch and Elijah? Why did they not have to wait for an Investigative Judgment to enter heaven.
My purpose in commenting here wasn't to convince anyone to leave or really to debate doctrine..Jimmy and I were in the same high school graduating class so I was interested to read his blog. There are Christians in the SDA church and I am blessed to count them as my fellow believers. That said, I'd love to continue to discuss theology with you if you are interested.
Blessings
Breanne
Hi Bree!
We’re now friends on facebook. :o) I’m also glad to have a friend who loves Jesus so much…. I’m still very much enjoying these conversations (I told Jimmy the same, he seems to have disappeared, maybe he knows women dominate conversations JK.) Sorry it took so long to reply, I got busy with my son and Sabbath stuff!
Now on the subjects you talked about in your last blog, I apologize on the delay I had a lot to think about, pray about and say, so this section is pretty long!
When I talked about Jesus giving the power to follow.. I believe He will give us His character as we follow. We, of course, can in no wise follow perfectly, and that’s where He covers us. But our desire is to duplicate his Character as much as possible, but it doesn’t mean we do it on our own. I have above my son’s crib “With God, nothing is impossible..” To remind me that IF He is, who He says He is, then nothing is impossible with Him. I also know that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. (Philippians 4:13) It’s not; I can do all things on my own! It’s ONLY by Him.
And when I talk about His Character, I mean the foundation of the law… LOVE God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor. This is the true Character he wants to reproduce in us, Love. The details of the law become natural to keep, because of this amazing Love for God, and seeing humanity as God see’s them, it’s easier to Love (and forgive) ones neighbor also. I believe that’s what happened to the disciples. Remember, when Jesus was on earth, they seem to just not get it! They would turn away people, want fire to come down from heaven and consume cities, etc. Jesus wanted them to see the bigger picture, but they kept failing. He promised them the comforter aka Holy Spirit will come when he leaves.
John 16:7-15 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe no ton me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me; for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All tings that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.”
Then right before Jesus’s ascension, he said.
Acts 1:8 “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you; and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
One of the most beautiful parts of this story that stands out is the difference of Character in each disciple, especially Peter after the Holy Spirit fell. Of course they were not “Perfect”, however, they had power to do Jesus’ will by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, I love that quote from EGW! The chapter in Christ’s Object Lessons further gives an example of this scenario! It’s not works based, it’s following Christ based!!! He will duplicate His character perfectly in You. A couple paragraphs before the one you quoted explains clearly what she meant.. Let me quote from pages 67-68 of COL,
“Christ is seeking to reproduce Himself in the hearts of men; and He does this through those who believe in Him. The object of the Christian life is fruit bearing—the reproduction of Christ’s character in the believer, that it may be reproduced in others. The plant does not germinate, grow, or bring forth fruit for itself, but to ‘give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater.’ Isa 55:10. So no man is to live unto himself. The Christian is in the world as a representative of Christ, for the salvation of other souls. There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do everything duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As YOU RECEIVE the Spirit of Christ—the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--- you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble and lovely.”
The fruit she is talking about is in Gal 5:22, 23 “The fruits of the Spirit”. The perfection of His Character.. Is LOVE. “When the character of Christ (LOVE) shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. “ And what do we know about Love?… “God is Love”. 1 john 4:8 So the church needs to fully turn their eyes upon Jesus and He will then reproduce His own Character in the Church. (It’s seems that many churches, including SDA’s, have failed at this aspect. That’s probably why the letters to the churches in REV 1-3 were to remind them to stay focus on Jesus.) Furthermore, this is what Sanctification is… Jesus working through the Spirit on our hearts, to have His character.
As for the investigative Judgment, I’m still studying this one out; there is so much to this because it involves the Sanctuary. From Heb 9, we know that there is a heavenly Sanctuary and we know we have a High Priest, Jesus who can save us to the uttermost (heb 7). The IJ is a part of the Sanctuary service (day of atonement). Where the people would gather and on that day to pray that their sins were pardoned, and there was a lamb slain etc. The IJ is to cleanse the Sanctuary (Dan 8:13, 14) and to ratify the decisions to be saved or lost. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, a solemn day of judgment took place in Israel (Lev 23:27). All were to confess every sin. Those who refused were that very day cut off forever from the camp of Israel. (lev 23:29) Two goats were selected: one, the Lord’s goat, the other, the scapegoat, representing Satan (lev 16:8). The lord’s goat was slain and offered for the sins of the people (lev 16:9) But on this day the blood was taken into the most holy place and sprinkled upon and before the mercy seat (lev 16:14) only on this special judgment day did the high priest enter the most holy place to meet God at the mercy seat. The sprinkled blood (representing Jesus’ sacrifice) was accepted by God, and the confessed sins of the people were transferred from the sanctuary to the high priest. He then transferred theses confessed sins to the scapegoat, which was led into the wilderness (lev 16:16, 20-22). In this manner, the sanctuary was cleansed of the sins of the people, which had been transferred there by the blood sprinkled before the veil and had been accumulating for a year.
Now for modern day application in Heb 9:23 it says,
“It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.”
Actually if you read Heb 9:19-10:18 explains what Jesus is doing. That day’s services pointed to the blotting out of sin by the real High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Through His shed blood applied to those written in the book of life, Christ would confirm the decisions of His people to serve Him eternally. This special judgment day, like that of Israel’s Yom Kippur, foreshadowed the final atonement to be made for planet earth. From the yearly type of the ancient Day of Atonement, all of humanity is assured that our faithful High Priest, Jesus, still mediates in heaven for His people and stands READY to blot out the sins of all who will exercise faith in His shed blood. The final atonement leads to the final judgment, which settles the sin question in the life of every individual, culminating in either life or death.
When you said,” Believers do not come under judgment for salvation.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24 RSV” I know the KJV says in place of Judgment, “condemnation” and I looked up the Greek word “Krisis”, and it means “accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.” This leads me to believe He is talking about judgment in the sense of accusing a guilty person. This verse makes me wonder if the verse is saying “believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Is meaning they won’t receive the wages of sin “roman 6:23” but have passed from the wages of sin “death” to life.
Because 1 Peter 4:17 says this:
“For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?”
You said God already knows who are His. I agree, he doesn’t need to pass judgment (what’s appointed for judgment day) on those that have already claimed Him, and He has claimed them, but there are many scenarios in the bible where God judges people. Examples Sodom and Gomorrah, Babylon with King Belshazzar where God said “TEKEL, Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.” In Revelation 1-3 He has special message of warning and rewards to His own churches, because as humans it’s easy for us to take our eyes off of Him. There is a constant battle for our attention and affections. One of the key words in REV is “Overcometh” and “Worship”. It seems to be the resounding theme of our lives. Do we overcome our old man? Or do we worship that which Satan is alluring us to over God? With all of this in mind, the bible gives great reason why there needs to be a judgment. So when we get to heaven, we can view the books, and the judgment God has passed to see His true Justice and His loving Character. To see all the zillions of times He called upon someone’s heart who didn’t believe on Him. Rev 20:4 And then it would be possible to wipe away every tear….
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Rev 20:4
As for Enoch and Elijah, or even all those people listed in the Faith Chapter Heb 11 (who were already judged by their incredible Faith) We know that once we accept Jesus and daily choose Him, that our sinful record is covered by His blood and we are made whiter than snow. So with each person in Heb 11. Their names were already in the book of life. Once they died, their destiny was sealed. They died in Christ.
Heb 11:39, 40 “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
They have yet to receive their reward of eternal life, but they believe the promise.
Furthermore, the IJ involves not only Jesus, but God the Father. Heb 2:24 So when each person written in the book of life comes up during the investigative Judgment, then Jesus confesses the saint before His Father.
Revelation 3:5
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
There is so much information! And I apologize if I put you to sleep! I hope my thoughts typed out make sense. It always seems to make sense in my head! Ha :o) However, I realize I might jump around too much. I also enjoy discussing theology. Do not worry if it takes a few more days to respond. I have a new lil one in my life to attend to and these topics are so big, that I have to gather my thoughts before responding. On another note, my son has been having reflux issues, I was wondering if you could keep him in your prayers? It’s been very stressful for me, trying to figure out how to make him more comfortable. I have been having long nights holding him up or worrying as he is in pain.
Warmly,
Vanessa
Vanessa,
Hope you are getting more sleep and your little one is better by the time you read this!
Wow...definetely a lot to cover. Thanks so much for your response and I'll definetely keep your little one in my prayers and also that you will be able to get more sleep!
You said "I believe He will give us His character as we follow. We, of course, can in no wise follow perfectly, and that’s where He covers us."
The difference here is I believe I do nothing worthy..and He has to cover even my "good works" because even those things I do out of love are tainted with sin. It is beautiful the change that occurs in each person who Christ draws to Himself, and I praise God everyday for the way He has changed my heart.
What we need to keep in mind regarding the idea of our sanctification is the distinction between the Law and the Gospel. In EGW's quote, even though she says that Christ is the one who does these things...she still says that Christ will only come back when His character is perfectly reproduced...the church is imperfect..we will never reproduce the character of Christ...that's why Christ died. Otherwise all he needed to do was come and set a good example and give us the Holy Spirit. By stating this...she is giving us the Law (which always condemns us) without the Gospel that Christ already paid it all.
To be blunt, the Investigative Judgement is so complicated because it was invented to cover up the Great Disappointment and is simply not Biblical. Taken from http://www.connecticut-adventist.org/Bible_Study/PioneerStories/hiram_edson.htm
which is a story about Adventist Pioneer, Hiram Edson.
"As they neared the middle of the field, Edson felt as it were a hand upon his shoulder, stopping him; and looking up he saw, as in a vision, the sanctuary in heaven, and Jesus, on that day which ended the 2300 years of the prophecy, leaving the holy place and entering into the most holy, for the "cleansing of the sanctuary."
So the entire doctrine originated in a vision in a cornfield after the Great Disappointment, which should have been dismissed.
I agree that we have a High Priest who ever lives to mediate for us and a sanctuary in heaven. The sanctuary is not the same as the earthly one...but heaven itself(Hebr. 9:24) The Investigative Judgement states that Jesus enters a second compartment of this sanctuary...but the division between the holy and most holy place on earth was torn top to bottom...if there were divisions in the heavenly sanctuary, would they not have been torn down too?
Daniel 8:13,14 is debated in Christian circles, but all interpretations recognize that the 2300 days are days not years due to the use of evenings and mornings. There is no basis grammatically for assuming the year/day principle applies in this case.
In Leviticus 16, both goats represent the work of Christ...to say that ultimately our sins are placed on Satan is blasphemous because that would negate Christ's atoning work and bearing of our sins by saying that ultimately Satan bears our sin.
you said "The final atonement leads to the final judgment, which settles the sin question in the life of every individual, culminating in either life or death. "
What do you mean by the final atonement?There is only one..at it was completed once for all when Christ paid for our sins in His blood.
In regards to John 5:24, you said, "This leads me to believe He is talking about judgment in the sense of accusing a guilty person."
Exactly! because we are not guilty in God's eyes, so there is no judgement or condemnation for us.
The context of 1 Peter 4 is regarding Christian suffering, not salvation.
I agree that God judges people.John 3:18 says "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
You said "So when we get to heaven, we can view the books, and the judgment God has passed to see His true Justice and His loving Character. To see all the zillions of times He called upon someone’s heart who didn’t believe on Him. "
Where is that in the Bible?
Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven prior to the IJ..you say based on their faith...if this is the case God has a double standard. Christians throughout history have believed and had incredible faith...take the disciples. Why would they have to go through an IJ? Shouldn't they just be taken to heaven? If the IJ is really supposed to reveal the fairness of God...Enoch and Elijah shouldn't have been taken to heaven...what is much more consistant is that we who believe are absent from the body present with the Lord when we die.(2 Cor 5:6-8) Jesus will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him
(1 Thess 4:14).
You said "Furthermore, the IJ involves not only Jesus, but God the Father. Heb 2:24 So when each person written in the book of life comes up during the investigative Judgment, then Jesus confesses the saint before His Father."
There is no Hebrews 2:24, so I'm not sure what verse you are referring to.
Don't worry about taking your time responding...I totally understnd..my sis has a 2 year old and she is soo full of energy I don't know how my sis keeps up. I'm sure it's at least as hard with a younger baby.
Praying for you!
Bree
Good conversation. I really like the tone; full of grace.
As one of the authors of one of the references Jimmy cites in his article, I want to speak to a different part of this issue. My thoughts are on motivational trends rather than specific doctrines (Sabbath, judgment, etc.).
From a research perspective, these are some of the questions that intrigue me on the topic of church attendance*:
1) What are the primary reasons that Seventh-day Adventists leave the SDA church?
2) What are the primary reasons that other Christians stop attending church?
3) Do people leave church (SDA, Protestant, Catholic) for different reasons at different ages? That is, do teens, young adults and older adults generally leave for different sets of reasons?
Research suggests that Christian teens and young adults (not talking about SDAs at this point) usually leave for reasons other than doctrine (See Lifeway research for example that studied 1,000 young people who left their Christian church communities--Rainer & Rainer and also Stetzer).
And Roger Dudley's longitudinal study of SDA teens didn't point to doctrine as the main reason for teens leaving (Why Our Teenagers Leave the Church).
But maybe doctrinal reasons are of increased importance for older SDAs.
For what it's worth, Christian communities are losing roughly 70% of their young adults (Lifeway research). Dudley reports that the SDA church is losing 40-50%, though some of us suspect this number is higher now. It partially depends on what age range one chooses.
I haven't seen research on why older Adventists leave, so I don't know the percentages for the various reasons--doctrinal disagreement, relational struggles, boredom, etc.
*Not that "church attendance" is the most important topic for consideration. But given that participating in a faith community is central to the spiritual journey, I do feel it is worth evaluating.
I do also want to say a few words on grace and guilt. I think part of this is a cultural issue, rather than denominational issue. Legalistic attitudes can be found in any protestant denomination, though some are surely more inclined in that direction than others.
I was fortunate to grow up in an SDA family where earning my parents' or my God's approval wasn't really an issue. Guilt wasn't used as a tool, and grace and freedom were a part of life (appearance, public school, etc. weren't issues). And this in a 3rd gen SDA family.
There are many Baptist and Methodist families that are much more legalistic about religion and acceptance than my family, and also many that are even more open. I just see this as very cultural, rather than doctrinal. I understand that you see it differently.
One non-SDA spiritual leader that I appreciate is Greg Boyd (no relation). He recently had this experience with a group of Adventists in Canada -- http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/the-good-news-tour/. [you can hear him speaking with Shane Claiborne and Chuck Colson here: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/evangelical_politics/ ]
May we each truly know, trust, experience, love and walk humbly with our God. And do the beautiful things in this world that he has prepared for us to be involved in (Eph 2:8-10).
Grace and peace,
Jeff Boyd
Okay, and mostly for fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s&feature=player_embedded
Jeff,
Great questions! I often wonder about such issues as well..I am very confused when I see young adults leave the Christian church. Personally, I think one of the issues outside of Adventism is a lack of doctrinal purity. Christianity seems to be shifting to a mentality that only those doctrines which are salvific in nature are important, and outside of those doctrines we should just all get along. As a result, we compromise and ecumenalize with denominations whom one some issues we may have contradictory doctrines...how confusing! Young adults then don't see the church as vital because who really knows which denomination is right..and isn't it more important to be spiritual. In my opinion (and I would love to see some one give more research time to this!), when we compromise our doctrine and turn church into entertainment our young adults lose sight of the faith, grow disinterested, and leave for a better entertainment experience out in the world. We would do well,in my opinion, to go back to tradition in the liturgy and in the Sacraments. Glad to here others are concerned about the trends of youth leaving the Christian church.
In Christ,
Breanne
First of all thanks Jimmy for starting such great blog where we can express and debate our beliefs.
So I’m not a brilliant biblical scholar or writer and I won’t be quoting a bunch of scripture, or EGW for that matter, but here are my thoughts.
I’ve struggled for years with the “judgements” that I feel many of my fellow Adventist’s reign down on each other due to their beliefs in doctrine or how I’m saved or what happened in 1844 etc etc. I have thought about changing churches, but deep in side I can’t.
For several years I rarely went to church. Only recently have I started going again. So I guess I’m kinda one of Jimmy’s stats. I have to say I didn’t feel welcome most of the time in the past and I have to admit that even now I kinda feel that way. But you know part of that is just my personality.
However, I do have to remember that this is a two way street. I do have to meet people half way. I can’t expect all of them to just come and welcome me the way I want to be welcomed. And I’m not going to believe exactly what they believe and vice versa. So I’m working on me in that arena.
Now as to the discussion on grace. It does seem many of us forget that we are saved by grace. I guess I was lucky, I was taught from the beginning that Jesus died for me and that all I had to do was accept him, which I did officially and publicly when I was 12. Do I believe this means I shouldn’t work to make my relationship better with God? No. Does this mean that I shouldn’t “try” to be a better person and christian because that is just a form of works? I don’t think so.
When I think of my relationship with God I think it is similar to my relationship with my family and friends. I love them so I do my best to do what makes them happy, what strengthens my relationship with them. Not because I have to, but because I want to. It makes me happy to do it. In fact it is the most rewarding thing I can do.
So since Christ died for me and I have chosen to follow him its only natural for me to try and do what he wants me to do. Not because it’s the law and if I don’t I’m going to hell, but because I want to do it. Am I successful? In God’s eyes I think I am since I continue to choose him and accept his gift of forgiveness and eternal life. In the eyes of my fellow humans I fail constantly.
I’ve really enjoyed reading all the comments. Keep up the inspirational writing Jimmy!
Brent
Thanks to everyone who has left posts so far...I appreciate it, we've really got a good thing going here. This is exactly the reason I started this blog...so keep talking...and comment on the other entries as well...that's how we keep the conversation going.
Breanne, I'm curious about one thing in particular: Do you actually believe there is a problem with Adventist Biblical-based theology (not 1844 stuff) or is it more the way Adventist you encounter have presented our theology to you?
Throughout this conversation, I've seen you and Vanessa start quite far apart and come much closer together in the end. As Adventists, we do believe in grace. It's just that many of our saints don't illustrate it or articulate it very well...that seems to be where you have gotten hung up. And I understand that completely. And there again, it comes back to relationships--to judgmental hypocrites misrepresenting the church that I love. It makes me sick.
Just in one of the recent letters to the Review in response to my cover story, a lady wrote in that young adults would be well served to come early and greet guests and members at the front door. But you can't skip the step of actually GETTING THEM TO COME TO CHURCH. That's just an illustration of my frustration.
Point it, people are people--no matter what church they are in. All churches have their good eggs and bad...I'm sorry that your experience has been with the latter.
I do have a question though. When you speak of the law being thrown (I'm paraphasing) etc. How do you feel about the ten commandments, Sabbath, etc. Do you believe they don't apply? My thought pattern is this: If you don't believe in the concept of once saved always saved, then there is still a standard we are held by--because if they're weren't and simple belief were enough--we'd never fall away. "Even the demons believe and tremble..." Do you follow what I'm saying? I'm curious on your thoughts on this.
By the way, I haven't disappeared and have been monitoring the discussion...but you guys are doing quite well. And that's the idea of comments...the author starts the discussion and it goes from there. So trust me, I'm here :)
Jimmy
Hey Jimmy,
I figured you were still around :)
As I said in my comment regarding the fundamental beliefs I disagree with, I do have a problem with SDA theology. I'm not going to separate 1844 and EGW from the rest because EGW and 1844 are the reason that the SDA church exists and both are included in the Fundamentals. I will,however, discuss the rest as separate issues even though even those two errors would be enough for me to leave the SDA church.
I am really enjoying my discussion with Vanessa and am thrilled to know that she trusts in Christ as Savior by grace through faith alone, but that doesn't mean that the denomination teaches that.
I think this reality is most clearly shown in SDA eschatology..what in this doctrine is seen as the seal of God in the last days? It's the Sabbath..a work. Not the Holy Spirit as it says in Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 which is an act of God which we receive by the faith that God creates in us.
As I was preparing to leave the Adventist church, I met with a pastor to attempt to resolve my doctrinal issues with the church. He cautioned me very strongly that to walk away from the church with the “truth” and the Sabbath put my salvation at risk. Is that salvation by grace through faith ? Or is that salvation by church membership and sanctification? Lest you think that I am an isolated incident, my parents experienced the same thing when they left and also the other families in Lincoln who’ve left the SDA church. Any relationship issues that have developed with Adventists occurred after I left the church for doctrinal reasons. Prior to that I loved the SDA church, but couldn’t live up to the faith mixed with works for salvation system. Two of the best friends I have and my husband I met while in the SDA church. Some of our family and friends are still SDA and I love them dearly.
I began studying the Bible and putting aside SDA doctrine to do so after I tried to prove from Scripture that Christians should keep the Sabbath and the Law was still in effect. I studied passages like:
Colossians 2(specifically 8-23) that tells us not to judge in regards to a Sabbath day, Romans 14 which tells us that one person observes the day and another does not but each person does so to the Lord and the same goes for what we eat, Galatians 2:17-21 tells us we have died to the Law and were crucified with Christ and live by faith in Him..also that if righteousness came by the Law ,Christ died for no purpose, Galations 3:3 asks the Galatians why they are trying to complete their salvation by the flesh(law) when they began by the Spirit(who gives faith)…moving to verses 15-29 Paul gives an example using Isaac and Ishmael which shows that the law came 430 years after Abraham (not at creation)and was our guardian until Christ came but made no one righteous. Now we by baptism are in Christ and are sons of God and live by faith not law, 2 Corinthians 3-5 contrasts the law and the Spirit, Hebrews 7 which states that with a change in the priesthood(Levite to Jesus’ priesthood) comes a change in law also, and Hebrews 4 shows us that our Sabbath rest is today..and every day that we trust in Christ alone.
After I studied the New Testament it became obvious that the Old Covenant and its laws were fulfilled in Jesus. What does this mean? It means that none of the laws from the OT apply to Christians unless the are reiterated in the New Testament(I will discuss those shortly).So yes I believe the Sabbath as stated in the Old Covenant is no longer applicable. I rest in Jesus every day. As for the New Covenant instructions to believers, we still cannot keep them all..each time you sin you become guilty as a law-breaker(James 2:10).
I don’t believe in Once Saved, Always Saved but the flaw in your thinking is you believe the Law is capable of something other than condemning us. If we want the law to have a part in our sanctification and justification, we do just what Paul accuses the Galatians of. At that point we fall from grace. When God grants faith, we don’t ask Jesus to make up the difference between our works and perfection , we ask Him to do it all for us.
You are correct that even the demons believe and shudder, but they do not trust Christ to forgive their sins. I’m not saying that we don’t do good works, we do…in the service of our neighbor. God doesn’t need our good works, and they are as filthy rags before God. James makes the point that our neighbor cannot see our faith except through our works, and this is the purpose of good works..not to please God, the rest of the Bible makes clear God is pleased only with faith in Jesus and His righteousness credited to our account. God will never be more pleased with me than He is now and will be the rest of my life as I trust Christ to pay the price of my sins and save me.
By saying, “if simple faith were enough we’d never fall away” illustrates perfectly the problem with SDA theology. At the end of the day, SDA theology comes straight back to a focus on what we do for God rather than what He does and has done for us.
I pray for everyone who is focusing on what they do for God rather than what He does/did for us. Keep your eyes fixed on Christ.
In Christ alone,
Breanne
Hi Bree!
Wow, it has been a long time! I’m sorry for the delay. I hope all is well.
You said we cannot re-produce perfectly the character of Christ. However, in 1 john 4:15-18 it says this perfect love can be reproduced if we believe in Christ and God dwells in us! Because God is LOVE. And that’s where the commandments are placed in our hearts. It says “Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.” Furthermore, in Galations 5:22-26 It talks about the fruits of the Spirit and specifically in verse 24 & 25 “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” So there is a sense of living in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. The Spirit dwelling in us, exudes those characteristics in us. So to such there is no law, because you’re living the law. Back up to verse verse 14 and it says “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” The action here is “love”, but we love only because Christ first loved us! 1 john 3:9, 10 says “No one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious; anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” Therefore, through believing in Christ, and God dwelling in us through His Spirit, we practice righteousness and love one another!
In regards to the 2300 day prophecy. The reason I believe it is counted as a day for a year is because of the context. In the book of Daniel, the Jews were taken captive. During that time, the sanctuary observance was abolished because of their captivity. They interpreted it as a punishment for not following God. The Sanctuary was to them God’s presence. (Since he dwelled with them in the Most Holy Place). Exodus 40:34, 35; 2 Chronicles 7:1-3) And since it was destroyed, they felt that God had been withdrawn from them. So after the vision of the 2300 day prophecy in Dan 8. The first portion of the vision was interpreted immediately, but then the second was not. So Daniel said a heartfelt prayer admitting him and his people are sinners in Dan 9 and in verse 17 he says “Cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord’s sake”. After his prayer, the Angel Gabriel, comes to deliver an answer to part of the vision, 70 weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression… etc. ….that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem …which did not happen in 490 days (7 weeks)… it happened 490 years. Furthermore in Ezekiel 4 it prophecies about the siege of Jerusalem and in verse 6 it says “I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
Regarding the final atonement I mean when Jesus comes again. Final Judgment takes place when he separates His Children from the others.
The viewing of the books I saw in Rev 20:4, since judgment was given to them, I concluded that they must have something to view, in order to judge.
In regards to Enoch and Elijah their direct entrance into heaven is similar to those that live until Jesus’s coming and seems to be an example of John 5:24. I do know, that following the verse you quoted in 2 Cor 5 verse 10 says “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” Also see John 5:2 and, Romans 14:10 quotes about a judgment
Just curious, do you believe in a judgment, and if so, when do you believe judgment happens?
If you would like me to expand on the IJ Biblically I can try and show you why I believe in it. However, if you are uninterested, I won’t. Along with this topic, if you’re interested, I’ll talk more about the Sanctuary on earth and heaven. The bible says the one on earth is a pattern of the one in heaven. Exodus 25:40, Heb 9:11, Heb 9:24 (“It says Christ did not enter the Holy Place made with hands” meaning there is one made with hands, one not. And the author of Hebrews called the eartly sanctuary a, “Copy, Figure, or Pattern” of the real Sanctuary in heaven. Read this verse in other versions also), Rev 11:19 there is a sanctuary in heaven. The earthly sanctuary veil was torn from top to bottom signifying that earthly sacrifices ended because the true Lamb of God had come and been Sacrificed, (I’ll explain more on this in a bit) If you study the Sanctuary system, the sacrificial duties do not end in the court yard (where the sacrifice took place). That doesn’t mean forgiveness is not given. It just means the High Priest had more to do in the service. That’s where Jesus became our mediator and intercessor. It’s a beautiful study. It’s interesting to study, because in the Sanctuary service one will see how Jesus became the Sacrificial Lamb for us, and then took the role of High Priest for us, and then to finally be our King. (At His 2nd coming) This is a huge topic.. if you feel up for it.. I’ll discuss this with you! I’m continuously studying this topic myself..
When I quoted heb 2:24, I did a typo, I meant Heb 9:24. Sorry!
In addition to our conversation, I wanted to respond to yours and Jimmys. Hopefully, this does not offend you. I do not desire that! I wanted to say I believe there are Adventists who are living only by works, they teach that, and judge others. Just as the Pharisees. But there are Adventist who believe in Faith producing works, through Christ and the Holy Spirit. I do NOT see our religion doctrine based on this! How would I have learned about grace, if this was so? I can also see how it is easy for anyone (in SDA) to get caught up in works. Especially when we are taught of the 10 commandments, but there is more to the law, that BY SOME not taught or preached, not to our religions fault, but the person. The law (realization of sin) directs us to Jesus, because the law cannot give life or righteousness. This is preached, because I’ve learned it.
I see how it can be viewed as the seal of God being the Sabbath by works oriented people in our Church. However, it’s not the seal of God as you stated our doctrine believes. It is the Holy Spirit living in you. And as I explained earlier we are to live in the Spirit, which fulfills the law! (Amen, to your verses)
In regards to your testimony, it saddens me that you had such experiences. I want to say Sorry on behalf of all those that treated you in an unloving matter, and tried to point you to works as Salvation.
I also studied the verses you quoted in regards to the Sabbath. First of all, I want to say I love the Sabbath because it reminds me of our Creator God. Who made the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. I do not keep it for salvational issues, but because I’m in love with Christ and it’s a beautiful day to spend with Him who gave it! I do spend each day with Jesus, but I recognize that He who made the world, set that day in His appointment book (in a modern sense ha) aside to meet with me. That if my birthday is on May 11th (which it is) I wouldn’t claim a different bday. It would not make sense, since that was the true day I was born on! So in the same idea, It’s hard for me to see another day as a day to meet with my Lord, and Savior as if He changed it. Can He change what he set in creation… or the day He made Holy? In Malachi 3:6 it says “For I am the Lord, I change not…”
Now in regards to the scriptures quoted. Colossian 2 and the Sabbath day was in context to the keeping of the sanctuary aka ceremonial laws aka ordinances aka old covenant. Colossians 2:14 says “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances”. Who wrote with hand writing ordinances? Which is against us? Look at 2 Chron 33:8 which says in the latter part of the verse…”according to the whole law and the statues and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.” So these were written by the hand of Moses, Not God.. Furthermore in Deuteronomy 31:26 it says “Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord, your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.” It’s placed on the side of the ark… not in the center where the 10 commandment sit in stone. So now looking at verse 16 in Colosians 2 the meaning becomes real when it talks about meat, drinking, holyday, new moon, or Sabbath days (plural). They were all ceremonial observances of the Sanctuary system which was torn from top to bottom. Furthermore, part of the ceremonial laws in sacrificing the lamb for our sins was to point to Jesus as it says in verse 17, as were the rest. This is not talking about the 10 commandments and the Sabbath. Galations 2: 17-21 is talking in context of what law again? Peter was opposed by Paul about the Gentiles needing to be circumcised. Circumcisions came from the old covenant presented to Abraham and established with Moses in the ordinances later, not the 10 commandments. Also Gal 3.. Continues on this same thought but in verses 15-29 it’s talking about Old covenant of circumcision still, found in Genesis 17. The Old covenant and not the 10 commandments were established 430 years after… The 10 commandment had to be established before Abraham because how did they know killing was wrong? Or why would they need to sacrifice a lamb in pointing to Jesus as our Saviour, if there was not standard to need Him? Romans 6:23 says the wages of Sin is death! Romans 3:20 says “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” The law gave us knowledge of sin. So why would our God tell Adam and Eve and their children to sacrifice a lamb without blemish (representing Jesus), if they did not know what sin was? Why would there be a penalty for sin, if no-one knew what sin was?
The new covenant is the 10 commandment law being written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Heb 10:16-18 Heb 10:1-9 is talking about doing away with the old ceremonial service for sacrifice, and the old covenant ordinances. (They all pointed to Jesus) And Jesus has come! Eph 2:15 says that the law that Jesus abolished was “the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” Not the 10 commandments, but the ordinances on the side of the ark. ( remember as stated earlier, Duet 31:26) Heb 9:9-12 explains even more of the old covenant.. which is clarified that it is in heb 9:1 stating that “Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly Sanctuary.” If there is a worldly once again, there must be another… Why would he need to clarify that?
Now with that new covenant of writing the law of God in our hearts by his Holy Spirit in mind, 2 Cor 3 make sense. It’s not contrasting them, it’s stating the Spirit’s work . In verse 7 it talks about Moses’s glory’s countenance upon descending the mountains and receiving the engraven stone. Paul even called the stone, Glorious, and then in verse 8 asks “How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?” verse 9 For if the ministration of the condemnation be glory. Much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.” (Because the ministration of righteousness is the Spirit putting that Glorious law, written and engraven in stone in our hearts)! 2 cor 3:15 - 17 says But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
Heb 4, never says to rest every day. It says in verse 4 he spoke of the seventh day. And in verse 3 he (Paul) says that even he and other who believe enter into rest. And verse 9 says” There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” Furthermore, in verse 11 it says to “labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” (speaking of the children of Israel in the Wilderness). The word used for “Rest” these verses in the original Greek is Sabbath.
It would not make sense to enter into this rest daily, because how would we work to make a living? The true rest is to not work, or do anything for thine own pleasure, but do to good for others and remembering our Creator, Jesus. It would be almost impossible to survive if every day we entered in that rest, without working for income. Furthermore, I did not see the context of everyday in those verses.
Finally, about the Sabbath, it would not make sense to change what was written in stone, set in the creation of this world, and not change the other commandments. There are no verses, stating a change. Furthermore, everyone in bible times only knew of Sabbath as in the 7th day. Change of it did not take place until Constantine. Many languages still refer to the 7th day, what we call Saturday, as Sabbath. Including Spanish and many others. Coincidence? The Sabbath is not based on our works. It’s recognition of our Creator and Creation, to remember! Furthermore, it’s interesting that the 4th commandment about the Sabbath is the only one that starts with “Remember”. As if we’d forget…
I’m glad to discuss these verses with you. I’m interested in what you have learned. And I KNOW you Love Jesus! I do too.
Warmly,
Vanessa
Hello Vanessa,
Before I touch on some of the topics you raised, I have a question about salvation for you. How do you know that you are saved? And how do you believe salvation is lost? Are there sins that keep a person out of heaven?
1 John 4:15-18 should be dealt with in context. Backing up to the beginning of the book, John makes it clear that we still sin. If we still sin, we cannot reproduce the love of Christ because Christ’s love is sinless. Do you think that you have ever loved another person with the same perfect love that Christ has? I know I have not. While it may seem that love is easier to keep than the dictates of the Mosaic law, it is even harder. Your motives, thoughts and feelings are in view with the command to love. No one that I have met has managed to love without any flaw in the above categories. If you are going to keep the law in a matter that is pleasing to God, it must be kept perfectly in thought, word and deed. There are no degrees to the keeping of the law..progression is meaningless..only perfection will do.
Romans states that there is no one righteous. The reason no one is righteous is because righteousness’ prerequisite is perfection. Galatians 2:21 says “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.” If we were able to love the way Christ did, we would be perfect and Christ would’ve died in vain! Paul wrote Galatians to legalists who were trying to force others to observe Judaic customs. After he explains that righteousness is not found in the law(doctrine), he discusses Christian behavior. It is a common pattern throughout the epistles. Christian behavior should be in keeping with the fruit of the Spirit, but it has no impact on our salvation. The Spirit dwelling in us does sanctify us (positionally and personally) We are sanctified now today positionally, and the Holy Spirit is also working in us to teach us how to live in light of the Gospel. However, we are not living the law! If you stumble in one point (thought,word or deed) you have broken the law.
1 john 3:9, 10 says “No one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious; anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.”
This verse is difficult for me to understand in light of John’s previous words that we all have sin. Here is what a wonderful Lutheran pastor explained to me regarding a similar verse 5:18: “First things first, Luther called the Christian simultaneously a saint and a sinner. Just right before the verse you read it says that "if anyone sees his brother committing a sin..." (verse 16). A brother is a fellow Christian in that context. So a Christian can still commit a sin. The only unforgivable sin is unbelief (Mark 16:16). The reason that unbelief is unforgivable is because faith is required to receive the forgiveness given to us by God. If you think of faith as an open hand, and forgiveness being dropped from God to us, if there is a hand it will catch the forgiveness. If there is no hand (unbelief) there is nothing there to catch the forgiveness that God is giving out…..Upon further looking into 1 John. I think the phrase "born of God" is helpful. Season this by the understanding that we have from John 3 about being born from above (from God), which is telling us about Baptism, when God calls us His own, and clothes us in Christ's own righteousness.
The exact same tense of the verb occurs in 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:4. 3:9 is saying something very similar to 5:18. In the ESV it talks about making a "practice of sinning" which indicates something more than the sins which Romans 7 describes. 5:4 helps clear this up more though, describing that faith is that which grants us victory over the world. It is being "in Christ" that keeps us secure. In fact, it is being in Him that allows us to be considered sinless saints - because God no longer sees our sins, but only Jesus perfection (the Great Exchange).
Some of these verses in 1 John stress the importance of the fruit of faith - good works. We must never take a single book or chapter or verse out of the wider context of Scripture. If something is hard to understand we look to the clearer spots in Scripture to help explain it. Good works are the product of the work of the Holy Spirit working in us, working through us...”(Rev. Joshua Sheer)
Back to my thoughts…so I am seen as not sinning, not because I am living the law, but because Christ lived it for me.
Moving on the the 2300 day prophecy, the word used in this prophecy for days is ereb-boquer, which is in reference to evening and morning sacrifices spoken of in Leviticus, not in reference to a day as in Mon., Tues., etc. In prophecies where the day-year principle could be applicable, this is not the word/phrase used. There is no reason to use the day-year principle with this vision.
The atonement was final at the cross of our Savior. The results of that atonement are yet to be seen.
In regards to Revelation 20:4, we must be very careful to not say more than Scripture does. From this passage we cannot determine what kind of judgement is given to us, who or what we judge, or what criterion we judge by. There is no mention of books that we look at in this passage. All we now is judgement will be given to us when Christ returns in glory.
How can Enoch and Elijah’s early enterence into heaven be the same as those who live til the second coming? Enoch and Elijah have been in heaven for thousands of years without passing a judgment…those alive at the 2nd coming will have passed the Investigative Judgment. This is very inconsistent, and if this idea of Great Controversy is really to show God as fair and just…I think if He is like Adventism portrays He fails the test. God does not need to justify His actions. We don’t need to see why He saved some and not others through some judgement..He tells us in Ephesians 1:3-14 that is what according to His purpose. We are not saved because of anything in us, but by the grace of God according to His purpose.
I do believe in a judgment. The judgement will take place at Christ’s return and will separate the wheat from the tares. Those whom have not been saved by the blood of Christ and have sinned the sin of unbelief will depart into hell where they will have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.(Matthew 13, Revelation 14:11) Those who have been granted the gift of faith and believed on Jesus’ sacrifice as the only way to be reconciled to God, not trusting in their own righteousness but the righteousness of Christ for them, to them God will say “'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
” (Matthew 25)Because He sees them as perfect covered by the blood of Jesus, shed for the forgiveness of our sins!!
I would be interested to hear why you believe in the IJ if you have time.
You said “The earthly sanctuary veil was torn from top to bottom signifying that earthly sacrifices ended because the true Lamb of God had come and been Sacrificed, (I’ll explain more on this in a bit) If you study the Sanctuary system, the sacrificial duties do not end in the court yard (where the sacrifice took place). That doesn’t mean forgiveness is not given. It just means the High Priest had more to do in the service.”
The tearing of the veil shows us that propitiation had been made for our sins and we can come freely before God our Father. The atonement must have been complete when Christ’s blood was given for our sins, or we are not reconciled to God and cannot come boldy before the throne of grace.
There is still a great logical inconsistency if the earthly curtain was torn, but there remain two compartments in heaven. Perhaps you can explain this Biblically a bit more.
There are certainly Adventists who live by faith and are true Christians. There are “Christians” who live by works as well. But true Christianity is composed of those who rest fully in Christ’s death for them on the cross. True Adventism is composed of those who fully follow EGW and the SDA doctrines she founded, which is a religion of works-righteousness. You could have learned about grace by reading the Bible for yourself. That would be the most likely possibility. I know there are SDA pastors who preach grace as they understand it. However, most do not really understand it..if you’d like I will find you a good Gospel-centered sermon and you can see if you can tell the difference. My mother began her journey out of the Adventist church when an SDA pastor preached the Gospel of grace from the book of Galatians. When she heard that sermon series, grace was a completely foreign, confusing idea to her. She had been an Adventist about 30 years then. If you talk to her now, though, she has a much fuller understanding of the Gospel and would disagree with at least a portion of what he preached.
In Present Truth, Jan. 31, 1849, Ellen White wrote, “"In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath.
Ellen White, in Selected Messages Book 3, p. 423. “The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarcation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and the transgressor…It is the seal of the living God.”
Ellen White, Review & Herald, April 23, 1901. “Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a manmade institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God’s rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.
Mrs. White "The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation" (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, p. 117).
"...Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God" (The Great Controversy, p. 640).
Ellen White, who is viewed as a continuing and authoritative source of truth according to the Fundamental Beliefs, believed the Sabbath was the seal of God. If this is only at the end of time, the doctrine makes God completely inconsistent. That would mean people are saved for all time up to the “end time” by faith, but at the end it’s by the Sabbath.
I cannot say I am sorry about the way I was treated after leaving. I understand their sincere concern for my salvation and I also understand the fear that people have of being “led astray” by people who left for another church.
In discussing the Sabbath, which I am hesitant to do further but hopefully will give more understanding by doing so, I must first say that keeping any day is adiophora. It is neither prohibited nor required by Scripture. I am very glad that you enjoy the Sabbath and that it reminds you of God our Creator. I would never desire to take time that you spend with Christ away from you and am thrilled you do not keep it for salvation reasons. What would, if anything, happen in regards to your salvation if you stopped keeping it? Malachi addresses the character of God, not His creation. He most certainly could change things he set in creation (think of the day the sun stood still, or the day its shadow went backwards!!) He is able to anything that is within his nature to do and change anything He wished so long it does not violate His unchanging character. The Sabbath as an observance was given at Sinai for the nation of Israel. Could you show me where Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath? From what I see God rested..no mention of Adam and Eve.
Colossians 2 :16 says “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day” The progression is Festivals (yearly), new moon (monthly) and Sabbath (weekly). Paul was trying to cover all the bases.
As to the distinction between civil/ceremonial laws and the 10 Commandments, where is that found in Scripture? 2 Chron 33:8’s reference to the hand of Moses is a reference to the Torah, the five books of the Law, not to who wrote them. All Scripture is God-breathed and the. These books are referred to as the law in the NT. Sabbath also involved sacrifices, which were ceremonial. I see no reason to apply Sabbath to Christians. Are you keeping the Torah regulations for Sabbath? The Torah was written under inspiration of God after all. The case I’m trying to make is not that you should ditch the Sabbath, but that you don’t actually keep it. If you are going to keep the Mosaic Law, you should keep the whole thing.
The Abrahamic Covenant is different from the Mosaic covenant, but both are fulfilled in Christ. Where are the ten commandments written prior to Sinai? We know it is wrong to kill because we are born with a conscience and a knowledge of the natural law. They needed a sacrifice because Adam and Eve sinned against God (by eating from the tree God said not to) and blew it for us all. God promised a Savior. The sacrifices pointed to that Savior.
In saying that the Mosaic law was not given at creation, I wasn’t saying that sin was not in the world prior to that. Romans 5:14 “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.” People knew what sin was because they are born with the knowledge of right and wrong.
You said, “ The new covenant is the 10 commandment law being written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.” Where does it say that specifically it is the 10 commandments written on our hearts? Are the 10 Commandments the totality of God’s law?
Hebrews 7:12 Says with a change of priesthood there is a change of law. The Mosaic law in its entirety is gone! Its replaced by the commands of Christ, but even that has no part in salvation. I’m not saying there is no sanctuary in heaven, I’m saying there is no Biblical evidence that there is anything left for Christ to do but intercede for us.
The law is indeed glorious as it says in 2 Corinthians 5, but all it brings is death…the language is definitely contrasting, the law engraved in stone brings death, but the Spirit brings life! Verses 15-17 says that when Moses (the Mosaic law/Torah) a veil is upon their heart that is only removed in Christ! The veil the that the Mosaic law brings is not a good thing..We have the reality that that Law pointed to..why live in the shadow?
Hebrews says after verse 4 in verse 7 says that the day to enter His rest is as long as that day s called “Today.” Every day is today so every day we are to enter His rest. The physical rest of the Sabbath is not the point of the Sabbath. The point of the Sabbath is the spiritual rest that only God provides. In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus says “Come unto me all you who are weary and heavy-laden and I will give you rest.” Matthew then follows up with a story about Jesus’ behavior on the Sabbath that ends with the statement “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Hebrews is talking about the rest that the Lord of the Sabbath offers, a rest from our striving to be righteous on our own.The word for rest in Hebrews 4:9 is sabatismos found nowhere else in Scripture. The rest wasn’t entered into in the OT because of unbelief, not because they weren’t observing the day..they were, but they didn’t have the important piece, a dependence on Christ(although some of course did and were saved by the hope of the Savior). I enter this rest every day that I depend on Christ for my salvation. Do you do nothing for your own pleasure on Sabbath? I cannot think of anyone I know who completely sets aside their own pleasure on Sabbath.
The Sabbath wasn’t changed, but it wasn’t for us..it was for Israel until Christ came. Jesus fulfilled it and now we have our ultimate Sabbath rest in Him! Where in the New testament does Jesus mention that we should observe Sabbath? When the rich young ruler asked, Jesus made no mention of it. I never said anything about changing the Sabbath. I agree the Israelite Sabbath was the 7th day. I am glad you find a blessing in resting physically on Saturdays. I simply have found that by keeping Sabbath in Jesus and resting from my own efforts “Today.”
I was very reluctant to cover this topic, I just don’t want to make it a big deal. I don’t equate keeping a day with Christ’s provision for me. I’m just tired of a day being a bigger issue than the Gospel. I love Jesus, He is my first priority.
My problem with SDAism isn’t that they observe a day, but the focus placed on that day..More often than not more time is spent on the subject of the Sabbath than on Jesus and the Gospel. I believe strongly that the Christian life begins and ends with the Gospel. I don’t need doctrines on what to eat and when to go to church and how to dress. I need focus on the Trinity, on God and His character and His law which isn’t only the 10 commandments(and how far I fall short), and finally on Christ’s forgiveness of my sins. Preaching on sanctification and focusing on it will only change outward behavior. Preaching the Gospel every week is essential for my faith. I need to die to myself in hearing the law, and be raised with Christ in the hearing of the Gospel. Anything less is useless.
I hope that I have clarified my position on things. Feel free to ask more questions! I continue to enjoy our discussion.
In Christ Alone,
Bree
Hi Bree,
I’m on here feeling like that this timing is very unusual. It is 3 am in the morning. And you are on my mind. I must confess, I didn’t feel like responding to our conversations, because not only are they tedious, but I got tired of debating. Therefore, I was planning on not responding. However, for the craziest reason, I feel God has woke me up tonight (not because of the baby either), kept me awake, and is urging me to respond to you!!! He must see something real special in You….. I don’t know how else to put it. So here I am, typing away at 3am, all because I cannot rationalize why He is compelling me to respond to you. I pray everything is safe and ok in your life.
You asked me 3 questions. “How do you know that you are saved? And how do you believe salvation is lost? Are there sins that keep a person out of heaven?”
A person is saved by believing on our Lord Jesus Christ and the fact that HE IS the Lamb that was slain for our sins. Salvation is lost by not believing or being indifferent to this fact. (as we both believe, belief calls for action). And there is NO sin unforgivable. Except the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is ignoring the calling voice of Christ upon our hearts. (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) And I see by what you have written. We both agree. Unbelief is unforgivable. As I stated before, belief calls for action! No one can believe in Christ, and He not change them. As you quoted, “Good works are the product of the work of the Holy Spirit working in us, working through us.” I agree.
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works I dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will Shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou Doest well; The devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead. “ (James 2:14-20)
“Faith and works are inseparable. True faith can’t exist without works any more than a square can exist without sides and edges. Anyone can claim faith, but only works reveal the claim’s veracity. Works show whether faith is a living faith or a dead one.” –Clifford Goldstein
And you concluded, “so I am seen as not sinning, not because I am living the law, but because Christ lived it for me.” Yes that is grace, but do you believe the product of faith, (believing in Christ, asking Christ to live within us through the Holy Spirit) produces GOOD WORKS?
(Because I am not good at structuring my sentences or getting my thoughts across sometimes, I will quote majority from Clifford Goldstein’s Book) As Clifford asked and points out about the Judgment… Do these texts depict some sort of end-time judgment or judgments? When does this judgment, or judgments, occur? Who is judged? What criteria is used to judge? What role doe works have in the judgment? How carefully are works and lives scrutinized? What are the results of the judgment? Let the texts speak for themselves independent of any preconceived judgment theology. Matthew 7:21-23; Matt 18:23-35; Rev 3:5; Matt 25:31-46; Rom 14:10-12; Daniel 7:24-27; Ecclesiastes 12:13,14; 1 Corinthian 3:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Heb 10:30; John 15:1,2; Matthew 16:27; Revelation 20:12; Rev 22:12; Matthew 7:2; 1Peter 1:17; Eccl 3:17; 1 Peter 4:17; Matthew 12:36,37; Matt 25:1-12; Daniel 12:1; Matt 13:47-50; Matt 22:1-13; Romans 2:5; Revelation 14:6,7; 1 Tim 5:24
A few points, apart from any distinctive Adventist theology, stand out from these verses; First, there is some sort of final judgment (or judgments), a reckoning near the end of time. This judgment (or judgments) is often directly associated with the Second Coming. Second, among those judged are the professed followers of Christ. Both Jesus and Paul make it clear that those who profess to follow the Lord will be judged. Third, a crucial element involved in this final reckoning is our works. This idea is a central focus of many of these texts. Fourth, only two outcomes are presented—those who inherit the kingdom of God prepared “from the foundation of the world” or those who go into “everlasting punishment.” Fifth, some texts clearly show a judgment PRIOR to the execution of the sentence---which makes sense. After all, even in human courts, who ever heard of sentence being executed before judgment? In some texts, such as the parable of the wedding garment, this point is explicit—There’s a judgment, an inspection of the guests’ garments, and then condemnation, Revelation 22:12, in which the Lord says that when He returns, his reward is with Him, also implies a prior judgment. (Why would the reward already be with Him if there were not some means beforehand of determining who should get it?) Also 2 Corinthians 5:10 clearly teaches a reckoning prior to a final reward or punishment. This idea is found as well in Daniel 12:1, where those whos names are found in the book of life are delivered. Any kind of judgment according to works implies a reckoning of those works before the execution of the reward or punishment based on those works, be that judgment a hundred years or a hundred seconds before the punishment or vindication is carried out. Furthermore, it hardly seems unreasonable to see in Revelation 14:7,8 a judgment before the Second Coming. The judgment is being proclaimed as part of the call to spread the gospel to the world; obviously, then this judgment, presented as having already come, must take place prior to the Second coming, because by then the gospel will have already been spread to the whole world (Matthew 24:14). In other words, the call to spread the gospel occurs at the same time as the message that judgment has come, which makes this judgment pre-Advent. Otherwise, why the call to proclaim the gospel to the world? The context of Revelation 14:4 through the end ot he chapter, including the condemnation of Babylon (verse 8), the warning about worship of the beast (verse 10, 11) and the final harvest (verse 14-18), places this judgment before Christ returns. AND Finally, Daniel 7:24-27 teaches a heavenly judgment BEFORE God establishes His eternal kingdom, which doesn’t happen until the Second Coming. Hence a pre-Advent Judgment.
THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT… Many of the verses listed above unambiguously show that judgment involves some sort of scrutiny of the attitudes and works of those judged; after all, what is a judgment without such a scrutiny? Also, didn’t Jesus say that we shall give an account of “every idle word,” (Matthew 12:36)? Is this not the same Jesus who said that “the hairs on your head are numbered”, who knows when a sparrow falls to the ground, who said that He shall bring “every work into judgment, with every secret thing” Eccl 12:14? Every work? Every secret thing? Thus, the whole idea of books, and a scrutiny of works, in the judgment shouldn’t be so cavalierly dismissed. Yet (and this get to the crux of the matter) how could any sinner stand when every idle word, every secret thing, comes into judgment? I’m a goner for what I’ve done in public, much less sin secret!! Who among earths sinful billions could stand justified before God in judgment when ever idle word and every secret thing is exposed? NONE, but the good news of the judgment is that Jesus, in his righteousness, gets us through the judgment because He stands there in our place. Otherwise all of us would be lost because none of us, no matter how good our works, have enough righteousness to stand before a Holy God. And less we are clothed in a perfect righteousness that none of us ourselves possess or could ever earn (no matter how sincerely and in faith we have tried), we would have to stand in our own works, our own righteousness--- and who wants to do that? Yet the good news of the judgment is that we don’t have to stand in our won righteousness. We can stand in the righteousness of Jesus. Just because we are judged by works doesn’t mean that we are saved by them. We are saved, instead, only through the righteousness of Jesus, which is credited to us by faith. This righteousness covers us the moment we surrender ourselves completely to Christ and claim His righteousness for ourselves—and it stays with us (though not unconditionally) right through the judgment. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit’ (Roman 8:1). NO condemnation—not now, and certainly not in the judgment. After all, what good would being covered by that righteousness do any of if we don’t have when we need it the most---in judgment? These verses Rom 8:34, Heb 7:25, Heb 9:24, Heb 6:20 all point to the intercession of Christ on our behalf. In Lev 16:14, 15, 18, 19 The key element in the symbolism of judgment (day of Atonement) stressed over and over, is that ONLY the BLOOD atones sin, not law, because blood, not law, atones… (I can send you Clifford Goldstein’s book, if you want to read more….)
So with these thoughts in mind, I want to make clear I do not claim to understand everything of God. However, I believe your claims that Adventism is claiming God to be unfair, is far from truth. Enoch and Elijah lived in a world similar (in sin) to our own, but walked with God (Gen 6:5, Gal 2:20). The fact they walked with God is the same claim we have today!!! When we are before the investigative Judgment it is the Blood of Christ, our Advocate, and our Intercessor, which stands in our place. His robes cover us. We have no different claim then what Enoch and Elijah already believed (through the sacrificial system aka Lamb being slain). And as the verse quoted above Roman 8:1, then there is no condemnation for the righteous. God’s reasoning to take them is clear to me, they were covered by the Lamb and they are used to show examples of the Gospel. Elijah has been a huge symbol throughout the bible. He represents many symbolic figures (another discussion). God’s intentions (in all appearance from the word) may be, to use these two and Moses, as examples to further prove his love for us in their symbolism and their example. Elijah and Moses were so important of a symbol, that they appeared to minister to Christ on the Mount. There is no unfairness to us, when we are covered by Christ. How can we question how long God has us stay alive on earth or not? He uses us to be examples where needed for His Good purpose. There is always a bigger picture in mind. It would be like saying, how is it fair that any of the martyrs that died for Christ, died early or latter? Or were tortured more or not? They praised God that they could have a part of what Christ suffered. I praise God I can too… Through the Lamb that was slain.
Finally, about Ellen White and her quotes on being sealed by keeping the Sabbath. Have you read her writings through? In context, she is referring to end time events. Salvation as we both have stated is by grace alone. Works comes from the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, which is the sign (fruit, works, any of these terms) of Salvation. I believe the bible teaches in keeping of the 10 commandments. None of the verses shown to me has proven otherwise. And the 10 commandments were never separated apart, to keep only this one or that one. EVEN JESUS kept the Sabbath His whole time on earth. (Look up the word Sabbath through all of Matt, Mark, Luke and John) Mark 2:27 “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath; Therefore the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath.” Jesus is the LORD we worship on the Sabbath. He created it!!! He didn’t create the Sabbath for only the Jews. The world was created and “MAN” was made. The Sabbath was also established at that creation. So continuing with the thought of Ellen White saying it’s the seal. One must logically think. Why on earth would the world not keep a day that the LORD made for Man? A day He invites us to spend with Him? To remember Him? Why would we FORGET, the commandment that he COMMANDS, “REMEMBER”??? Is this commandment something that Satan is trying to cause us to FORGET? Now logically looking in revelation, not even having to read it, just browsing it, WORSHIP is the key issue. Go through Revelation and highlight how many times it says Worship. Something is wrong in this picture. Furthermore, look up the history of Constantine, where the Sabbath was changed. Obviously, the Sabbath was kept after Christ ascended into heaven. ALLL The way until Constantine changed it!!! So therefore, Christ followers kept the Sabbath, after Christ left. This includes Paul, John the revelator, James, and many more. CAN U believe… A MAN changed it…. The COMMANDMENT OF GOD, the only one that says… remember? Christ said, the Sabbath was made FOR MAN, not MAN FOR the Sabbath. Now without diving deep into end time events or revelation.. LOGICALLY.. Something is wrong with this picture?? And as we used before in Revelation 14, anyone who worships the BEAST and HIS IMAGE will receive a mark. OK, so there is a mark for worshipping the beast….AND HIS IMAGE.. So even the image of the beast (indirect worship) is wrong. Obviously there is something about Worship. So the complete opposite of worship the beast? Is worship CHRIST! SABBATH was created to WORSHIP our CREATOR (Christ). A Holy, sanctified day set at CREATION. Furthermore, the bible says in ISAIAH 66:22,23 “For as the new heavens and the new earth,, which I will make,, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and form one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD”--- We will be worshiping BEFORE GOD (JESUS) in Heaven.
Therefore to say the seal of God is Sabbath, would logically make sense, if the to worship the beast and HIS IMAGE, is the opposite.
Now that all of that is said, I can go to sleep!
Warmly, your sister in Christ,
Vanessa
Hello to all those watching this thread! Vanessa and I have decided to move this discussion to more private channels so as not to cause division or heartache in the body of Christ. If you would like to discuss any of the topics we have talked about with me further you can email me at breanne.whitney@gmail.com
Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus,
Breanne
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